Program Item Details
TITLE: Dr. Gordon Walker, Associate Professor, Physical Education and Recreation, University of Alberta and Researcher, Alberta Gaming Research Institute
SUBJECT: #195 Gambling and the Pursuit of Happiness
SYNOPSIS: Next time you buy a lottery ticket or visit a casino, ask yourself how this might fit into your overall concept of leisure activities. That’s exactly what
Dr. Gordon Walker is looking
at for the Alberta Gaming Research
Institute.
AUDIO: Download Audio (mp3 format)
TRANSCRIPT:
#195 March 14, 2006
Interview starts at 1:10
Intro: Go anywhere in Alberta and you’re never too far from a slot machine, VLT or Black Jack table. We hear a lot about the trouble gambling addictions cause in people’s lives. But for many, gambling is just another form of recreation. Dr. Gordon Walker has studied recreational gambling for the Alberta Gaming Research Institute. Gordon is an associate professor in the Faculty of Physical Education and Recreation at the University of Alberta. He also teaches a course called “Life, Leisure and the Pursuit of Happiness.”
Dr. Gordon Walker
GW: Well, from the life prospective, research suggests over 80% of Albertans gamble so it’s a pretty prevalent activity. In terms of happiness, I guess, a lot of people would say that winning is why they do it but there’s other reasons–social aspects, there’s risk taking, and so from a happiness prospective, I mean, gambling is a good leisure activity to look at.CC: WHAT ASPECTS HAVE YOU BEEN LOOKING AT IN YOUR RESEARCH?
GW: I’ve looked at a few things with different colleagues. I started off looking at casinos and tourism with Tom Hinch. My own research though has primarily looked at gambling and culture and how culture might affect who gambles, how often they gamble, and that sort of thing. And then, I’ve got a couple other projects with a couple other collaborators looking at things like gambling in corrections and we’re really interested right now with another colleague, Dan Mason, looking at where the gambling money goes that comes up in Alberta and how it’s distributed and how much people know about it.
CC: LOOKING AT THIS ASPECT OF GAMBLING AND CULTURE, THERE ARE SOME CULTURES WHERE GAMBLING IS MORE ACCEPTED THAN PERHAPS OTHERS AND I’M THINKING OF ABORIGINAL AND CHINESE CULTURES, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE IN THAT ASPECT?
GW: Well I have done some research looking at prevalence, how often people have gambled in the last year. Garry Smith did some research and found, for example, that Ukrainians, self-identified Ukranian-Canadians, their rate was over 90%, so quite frequent. My own research has found with Chinese, for example, that it’s around 60% at least in Alberta which is 20% below the average. So, in some ways going against the norm, in terms of maybe people’s perceptions of Chinese gambling, it was actually lower. And looking at some of the results from other places, that number seems to be about right. Around 60% of Chinese said that they had gambled in the previous year.
CC: HOW DOES THAT FIT WITHIN THEIR ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES IN LIFE?
GW: Well, you know, it’s sometimes said that gambling is a tax on the poor and typically what happens especially with Euro-British Canadians is the poorer they are, the more likely they are to gamble. So, as income goes up, gambling prevalence goes down. But with Chinese we actually found that the opposite happened. That Chinese who made under $25,000 a year were much less likely or much more prevalent to gamble than those above $75,000. Those that had disposable income were more likely to gamble. So, it was actually the reverse, it was more they had the money, they didn’t have to maybe pay for basic expenses and support their family, and so they’re the ones that were much more likely to gamble. So it was the reverse of what we usually see.
CC: WHY DO YOU THINK IT WAS THE REVERSE?
GW: Well, that’s an interesting question. I think part of it may be, just in terms, a lot of them are new immigrants, they’re coming, there is so much else in terms of learning the language, learning Canadian’s morals and systems, and there’s so much focus on work and getting ahead, that they don’t think about leisure. It’s only after they’ve been here awhile that they become more culturated, maybe they’ve succeeded economically that they say, okay now I can gamble because I have the money and it’s not going to negatively affect my family.
CC: WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE IMMIGRATION FROM ASIAN COUNTRIES, THERE ARE SO MANY ACTUALLY DIFFERENT GROUPS WITHIN THAT, DOES THAT MAKE A DIFFERENCE?
GW: I think it probably does because now most of the Chinese immigrants that are coming to Canada are from People’s Republic of China and gambling has only relatively recently been accepted and approved by the communist government in part to support the Olympics–buying lottery tickets so you can support the Beijing Olympics. So, I mean, that may be a factor as well as they are not as exposed as Chinese who come from Hong Kong, for example, or other Asian groups where gambling was more prevalent and allowed. One of the things that I found that was fascinating about Chinese when I was going back and looking at the history of gambling, was that at least there is some research that suggests that the Great Wall was partially funded by lottery tickets 3,000 years ago whenever. So, there is that part, in terms of Chinese culture in history and gambling. But, more recently with the communist government, it has just been outlawed until the Olympics did come along.
CC: WELL YOU MENTIONED LOTTO TICKETS, HOW DOES THAT FIT IN THEN WITH YOUR OVERALL GENERAL CONCERN ABOUT LEISURE ACTIVITIES?
GW: Well, I mean, typically we gamble in our free time. It’s something we voluntarily do. Those are all leisure attributes. So, I mean, it fits in. I think lottery tickets are a little bit different because, you know, it’s a relatively cheap and easy thing to do but, I think, the leisure aspect probably comes with lottery tickets in terms of the dream of winning. I think last week there was a $300 million payoff in the U.S. and, I mean, it’s that aspiration of what would I do with $300 million. It is the fantasy aspect which is just another kind of leisure. So, lottery tickets would fit right in there.
CC: IN THE RESEARCH THAT YOU’VE DONE ON THIS, HOW WOULD YOU LOOK AT PEOPLE WHO JUST HAVE TO GET THAT LOTTO TICKET?
GW: Well, I mean, there are a few reasons. One, of course is the fantasy of winning the million or the $100 million. I guess the other one, some researchers have talked about, is called anticipated regret. And, that’s the regret of what happened if this week I didn’t buy my tickets and my numbers came up and there’s sort of that negative reinforcement. And so, I think, some people look at it that way as they are just scared. I think there was a case in British Columbia, you know, in the summertime where there were people who hadn’t chipped-in their money into the pool and then there’s a big lawsuit about should they get part of the lottery funds and people are going "oh yeah, I got to remember to put my money in, because I don’t want to miss out in case we win." And so, there’s the fantasy aspect of lottery tickets. There’s anticipated regret in terms of what if I did win with my numbers but I didn’t have the ticket. So, there’s multiple reasons, I think, with lottery tickets.
CC: ONE OF THE AREAS THAT YOU’VE LOOKED AT IS TOURISM AND CASINOS AND GAMBLING, WHAT DID YOU FIND IN THAT RESEARCH?
GW: Well, casinos are often thought of as something that draws tourists to a city and it does do that but a lot of people who do use the casinos are locals, I mean, quite a few. And so, one of the concerns is how many people does it attract. I guess one of the concerns would also be in terms of differentiation, I mean, more like Edmonton or Calgary isn’t going to be the same as Las Vegas where people are drawn there to gamble, to do other things. I was trying to remember the slogan, something along the lines of "what you do in Vegas, stays in Vegas." It’s not going to be the same, "what you do in Edmonton, stays in Edmonton." I don’t think that’s going to work. So, from a tourism perspective, it does draw some people but it’s not as big a draw maybe as other things. And so, I think you have to take that into account and really, really think about the economic benefits that maybe people get from tourism versus some of the costs that can go with gambling and casino gambling.
CC: WHY DO PEOPLE GO?
GW: Why do people go to casinos? There’s all kinds of reasons. The one that people often say like lottery tickets, is because of the chance to win but, I think, that’s more top of mind it comes out but when we actually ask people, you know, beating your competitor, beating the casino, it wasn’t that important. The kinds of things that people said were important, were taking chances and risk and sometimes escape from your everyday problems and really the top one was communing. That sense of going with people, the social aspect, and that sense of belonging. By far, that was the most common reason people said they went to casinos.
CC: NOW HOW CAN THAT BE SOCIAL IF YOU’RE SITTING IN FRONT OF A SLOT MACHINE AND YOU’RE PLUGGING YOUR QUARTERS OR DOLLARS INTO IT. WHERE’S THE SOCIAL ASPECT OF THAT?
GW: Well, if you’re doing that unless the person sitting next to you, you’d have to wonder but it probably also depends on the game. So, if you’re playing cards for example, it’s very social and you’re talking to the person next to you and maybe you’re trying to bluff and maybe you’re trying to find out what’s called a tell so you know what their cards are versus something like a VLT machine, video lottery terminal, where you’re just focussed so much. On the other hand, if you think about a casino as a place that’s separate, often without windows, you don’t know the day or time, they don’t have clocks, if you think of it that way, I mean, it is a place that’s very isolated from other distractions and you really could probably focus on the person next to you and see what they’re doing and talk to them and have a social experience. So, it is kind of strange but again, at least with casinos we found that communing aspect was by far the biggest motivation.
CC: WERE YOU SURPRISED BY THAT FINDING?
GW: I was stunned by that finding. I had sort of the same question you had asked but in going back and looking at the data, we found that bingo halls, for example, are well-known for the social aspect. And so, why not casinos as well.
CC: THERE’S AN AWFUL LOT OF MONEY THAT GOES INTO GAMING IN ALBERTA. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHY SO MUCH MONEY GOES INTO IT?
GW: Well, I mean, you’ve got 80% of the population that gambles at least once a year. I think the numbers I’ve seen are, on average, people spend around $400-$500 a year. That’s a lot of money coming in. It turns in to over a billion dollars is the estimate for this fiscal year–$1.2 billion. And so, I mean, it’s a huge amount of money and I think one of the things that’s really stunning about that is how quickly it’s happened. I mean, beyond lottery tickets in the last thirty years, casinos are relative recent, VLTs, and so there has been this amazing escalation in terms of the amount of money that’s coming in and the amount of people that seem to be gambling. And, I think, it’s fascinating in terms of how that’s all happened but also maybe in terms of what it may mean.
CC: YOU’VE GOT A NEW PROJECT COMING UP THAT’S GOING TO LOOK AT THE MONEY. WHAT’S THAT ABOUT?
GW: I’m working on a project with a colleague, Dan Mason, because we want to get an understanding of do people really know how much money gambling brings in and where the provincial government allocates it. Are they aware of it. Do they support it. And, those are big concerns when you’ve got a billion plus dollars every year to hand out to different places like, in some cases, sport and recreation but also everything from seniors homes and hospitals to other places and so we’re really curious about what Albertans think about where gambling money comes from and where it goes.
CC: YOU’RE LOOKING AT THE HAPPY SIDE OF GAMBLING. A LOT OF PEOPLE LOOK AT THE SAD SIDE OF GAMBLING. HOW DO THE TWO MIX?
GW: Well, I mean, the research suggests that probably about one percent, maybe two percent of people are problem gamblers. That means it affects them in terms of maybe lying to their family or economic problems or that sort of thing. Another two or three percent may have some signs of that which leaves about 95% of people who gamble–19 out of 20–who do it recreationally. Go a couple times a year, don’t spend too much money, don’t have problems. So, I mean, I think you have to put it in that context. The problem with those that do have problems, is that the problems are often so serious. It can be bankruptcy. It can be losing your family. And some research by Garry Smith would even suggest that gambling is often tied to things like suicide. And so, it’s one of those two-edged swords. For 95% of the people who do gamble, it’s not a problem. It’s not issue, it’s just another recreational activity. But for those that do have problems, they can be very, very serious.
CC: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
GW: Thank you.
Dr. Gordon Walker is an Associate Professor in the Faculty of Physical Education and Recreation at the University of Alberta. He’s also a researcher with the Alberta Gaming Research Institute.
FEATURED LINK: Alberta Gaming Research Institute